Episode Details

 Ten years ago, Nikole Hannah-Jones wrote a powerful essay about choosing a predominantly Black, low-income public school for her daughter, Najya. That piece helped inspire a generation of parents to think differently about school choice, including many of us at Integrated Schools. Now, a decade later, Hannah-Jones has returned to that decision, this time through the eyes of her 16-year-old daughter, who has some very different feelings about the education she received.

Her new essay, In Fighting for Every Black Child, Did I Betray My Own?, has sparked a national conversation about school segregation, parenting, privilege, and the tension between doing what's best for our own children and doing what's right for all children.

To help us wrestle with these questions, we're joined by two mothers with different experiences and perspectives. Marian Dingle, a longtime educator and Black mother of two adult children, reflects on the choices she made for her own kids and the importance of protecting their identities and humanity. Jenny Devenny, a White mother in Brooklyn and leader of Integrated Schools' NYC chapter, shares why Hannah-Jones's experience has strengthened, rather than shaken, her commitment to integration.

Together, we explore what makes a school "good," the limits of school ratings and test scores, the role of parents in advocating for their children, and the ways race shapes the risks and opportunities families encounter. We also consider what it means to stay engaged when a school isn't perfect, how we define success for our children, and why the responsibility for integration cannot continue to fall disproportionately on Black families.

Hannah-Jones's reflections are a reminder that one family's choices cannot undo generations of systemic inequity. But that doesn't mean our choices don't matter.

At the heart of this conversation is a question we return to often at Integrated Schools: How wide can we draw the circle of children we consider "our kids"?

We are deeply grateful to Nikole Hannah-Jones and Najya for sharing their experiences so honestly, and to Marian and Jenny for helping us sit with the complexity, discomfort, and possibility of this work.

LINKS

• In Fighting for Every Black Child, Did I Betray My Own? — Nikole Hannah-Jones, The New York Times Magazine (2026)
• Choosing a School for My Daughter in a Segregated City — Nikole Hannah-Jones, The New York Times Magazine (2016)
• An Argument — This American Life, featuring conversations with Nikole Hannah-Jones and Najya (2026)
• The Problem We All Live With, Part One — This American Life (2015)
• The Problem We All Live With, Part Two — This American Life (2015)
• What Nikole Hannah-Jones's Essay Means for White Families — Jenny Devenny, Integrated Schools (2026)
• Extensive Data Shows Punishing Reach of Racism for Black Boys - The New York Times (2018)

ABOUT OUR GUESTS

Marian Dingle is a longtime elementary school educator, mother of t