Episode Details

In this episode, Andy talks with Jia Jiang, bestselling author of Rejection Proof and creator of the 100 Days of Rejection experiment, about his new book, Easy Discipline. Growing up in Beijing, Jia was taught the value of chi ku, or "eating bitterness," the idea that the more pain you can tolerate, the more you can achieve. The problem? He was terrible at it. Over time, he discovered that his best work came when he was having the most fun.

Andy and Jia explore what easy discipline does and doesn't mean, why action goals can work better than outcome goals, and how stepping into a character, like a consultant instead of a salesperson, can change your results. They also discuss how project leaders can build a momentum loop early, how a single one-action goal can help turn around a struggling project, why some efforts work best as time-boxed sprints, and how to tell normal resistance from work that simply doesn't fit who you are. Jia closes with stories of how he and his wife apply easy discipline as parents.

If you're looking for a more sustainable way to stay consistent without constantly fighting yourself, this episode is for you!

• "It literally translates into English as eating bitterness.... The idea is the more bitterness, the more pain you can tolerate, the higher achievement you can go to."
• "If work ethic is the only thing that matters, the best factory workers will be the richest people in the world, right?"
• "It's really the inner drive that takes us to go a long way."
• "I did programming to achieve a goal, to achieve some sort of success. He did programming for fun."
• "The things I didn't like to do? I failed miserably. For the things I like to do, I was doing them so well."
• "If you can tap into the 'play' part of yourself, the enjoyment part, that's where you are at your best, even at work."
• "Having a deadline, having a finish line is sometimes magical."
• "The key for me as a parent is this: How do I enjoy being with them more?"

• 00:00 Introduction
• 01:58 Start of Interview
• 02:08 Seen as Lazy and Hopeless: Learning to "Eat Bitterness"
• 04:53 Grind Culture and the Myth of Hard Work Alone
• 06:21 Elon Musk and the Power of Inner Drive
• 08:00 What Easy Discipline Doesn't Mean
• 09:11 Chasing the Bill Gates Dream
• 11:42 Fired and Rehired by the Same Boss
• 13:26 Applying Easy Discipline to Losing Weight
• 16:05 Outcome Goals vs. Action Goals
• 17:48 What Jia Still Hasn't Made Enjoyable
• 20:28 Getting Into Character
• 22:36 Accessing a Real Part of Yourself at Work
• 23:43 Building a Momentum Loop Early in a Project
• 26:05 Delivering Early and Finding Stakeholder Support
• 27:14 One Action Goal for a Struggling Project
• 29:22 Why Jia Told a CEO to Stop After 100 Days
• 31:03 When Fast-Tracking Everything Backfires
• 32:33 Normal Resistance or the Wrong Work?
• 35:22 Living Someone Else's Dream
• 37:23 Easy Discipline as Parents
• 41:02 End of Interview
• 41:44 Andy Comments After the Interview
• 45:27 Outtakes

You can learn more about Jia and his work at JiaJiang.com. You can also watch his TED Talk, What I Learned from 100 Days of Rejection.

For more learning on this topic, check out:

• Episode 522 with Ross Blanken