Episode Details

For this episode, the core material is the collision between Tim Campsall’s “Messy Middle” — the point where the business has outgrown the owner — and Rick Tousseyn’s work testing what actually drives visibility in AI search. The transcript also gets into process documentation, zero-click search, podcasts/video as visibility surfaces, AI-generated versus human content, and AI as a thought partner rather than a wholesale replacement for people. Part 1 - Intros & The Messy Mid… Part 1 - Intros & The Messy Mid… Part 1 - Intros & The Messy Mid…

Jason Wade is the founder of BackTier, where he works on AI Visibility — the systems that determine whether companies, people and other entities are discovered, understood, cited and surfaced inside AI-generated answers. His work spans Generative Engine Optimization, Answer Engine Optimization, entity clarity, citation infrastructure and the broader transition from traditional search to AI-mediated discovery.

Jason also hosts the AI Visibility Podcast, where he talks with researchers, operators, founders and practitioners about how AI is changing discovery, authority, business operations and decision-making. His work is heavily experiment-driven: testing how different platforms, content formats, third-party signals and entity structures affect what systems such as ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini and Perplexity actually retrieve and say.

Tim Campsall is a business coach with TBC ActionCOACH of Indiana and describes himself as “The Messy Middle Guy.” His work focuses on established owner-led companies that have reached the stage where continued growth requires the business to become less dependent on the founder.

Tim helps owners move knowledge and processes out of their heads, establish clearer systems and accountability, build stronger teams and create companies capable of scaling without requiring the owner to personally solve every problem. His work centers on what he calls the Messy Middle: the transition between successfully building a business and building a business that can operate and grow beyond its founder.

Rick Tousseyn is an AI search researcher and SEO/GEO strategist at OtterlyAI. His work focuses on understanding how brands appear across AI search and answer engines and testing the signals, platforms and content strategies that influence AI visibility.

Rick runs experiments involving platforms such as LinkedIn and Reddit, video and podcast content, and AI-generated versus human-produced content to understand what actually affects discoverability inside systems including ChatGPT, Google AI Overviews, Claude and Perplexity. His work sits at the intersection of traditional SEO, generative search and the emerging discipline of measuring brand visibility inside AI-generated answers.

BackTier — AI Visibility: backtier.com

Jason Wade / BackTier: About Jason Wade and BackTier

Tim Campsall: LinkedIn

TBC ActionCOACH of Indiana: LinkedIn

Rick Tousseyn: LinkedIn

OtterlyAI: otterly.ai

Rick Tousseyn at OtterlyAI: Rick’s OtterlyAI articles

The Tim and Rick bios and links were cross-checked against their current public profiles and OtterlyAI’s site. LinkedIn BackTier’s current site identifies Jason T Wade as its founder and describes the company around AI visibility, entity resolution, GEO and AEO.

Listen Now