Episode Details

Jeffrey Pfeffer has spent decades showing that people-first companies outperform, and just as long watching that evidence lose to habit. His answer is blunt: whether you're cautious about power or thirsty for it, there's no denying its role in the workplace, and ideas without power are just ideas. In this revisited episode, Dart and Jeff explore the purpose of power, the knowing-doing gap, and how to build profits by putting people first.

Jeffrey Pfeffer is the Thomas D. Dee II Professor of Organizational Behavior at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, where he has taught since 1979. He is the author of several books, including The Human Equation, Dying for a Paycheck, and 7 Rules of Power.

In this episode, Dart and Jeff discuss:
- Why most of us are ambivalent about power
- Why a big title doesn't make you powerful
- Why ideas alone don't change anything
- The seven rules, and which one matters most
- Why we never pick the leaders we say we want
- Why evidence keeps losing to habit
- Getting ideas past people who can ignore you
- Why HR keeps losing the power game
- Can you have power and put people first?
- And other topics…

Jeffrey Pfeffer is the Thomas D. Dee II Professor of Organizational Behavior at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, where he has taught since 1979. He previously taught at the University of Illinois and the University of California, Berkeley, and has been a visiting professor at Harvard Business School, London Business School, Singapore Management University, and IESE. He is the author or co-author of several books, including The Human Equation, The Knowing-Doing Gap, Leadership BS, Dying for a Paycheck, and 7 Rules of Power. His work has been cited more than 200,000 times. He hosts the Pfeffer on Power podcast and has taught a MasterClass since 2025.

Resources Mentioned:
Jeff's Books,
7 Rules of Power: https://www.amazon.com/7-Rules-Power-Pfeffer-Jeffrey/dp/1800751281
The Human Equation: Building Profits by Putting People First: https://www.amazon.com/Human-Equation-Building-Profits-Putting/dp/0875848419
Dying for a Paycheck: How Modern Management Harms Employee Health and Company Performance, and What We Can Do About It: https://www.amazon.com/Dying-Paycheck-Management-Employee-Performance/dp/0062800922
Leadership BS: Fixing Workplaces and Careers One Truth at a Time: https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-BS-Fixing-Workplaces-Careers/dp/0062383167
The Knowing-Doing Gap: How Smart Companies Turn Knowledge into Action (with Robert Sutton): https://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Doing-Gap-Companies-Knowledge-Action/dp/B00DEK8PAA
Chimpanzee Politics: Power and Sex among Apes, by Frans de Waal: https://www.amazon.com/Chimpanzee-Politics-Power-among-Apes/dp/0801886562
Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, by Robert B. Cialdini: https://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Robert-Cialdini/dp/006124189X

Connect with Jeff:
Website: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/
Pfeffer on Power podcast: