Episode Details

What if building a healthier society has less to do with hospitals than we think?

In this episode of Thought Atlas, I sit down with Dr. Nicholas Freudenberg, a public health researcher, teacher, and longtime activist whose work has spanned more than five decades across health and social justice issues.

Nicholas argues that health is profoundly influenced by the conditions in which people live, work, learn, and participate in society. We explore what public health looks like when we move beyond medical care and consider factors such as food, housing, work, healthcare, clean air, and clean water.

Our conversation then turns to one of the central themes of Nicholas’s work: social movements and their ability to change the conditions that shape people’s health.

Drawing from his research and decades of observing activism in New York, Nicholas explains what he believes effective movements consistently understand. He discusses the importance of accurately identifying the causes of a problem, bringing different constituencies together, building collective power, and having the patience to pursue changes that can take years or even decades.

He shares the example of campaigns against childhood lead poisoning, describing how parents, tenants, teachers, and health professionals came together to demand stronger protections. We also discuss the Young Lords and their campaign around Lincoln Hospital in the South Bronx, where community-rooted activism brought attention to problems with healthcare access and helped push for changes at the hospital.

Another important lesson is the balance between short-term victories and long-term goals. Nicholas explains why movements need immediate achievements that keep people engaged while maintaining a larger vision of the society they ultimately want to build.

We also explore coalition building and why groups with different backgrounds and priorities can struggle to remain united. Nicholas discusses the Fight for 15 campaign as an example of workers, immigrants, unions, fast-food workers, car-wash workers, and families coming together around a shared demand.

The conversation moves into the difficult relationship between movements and institutions. Nicholas argues that compromise is inevitable, but activists need to distinguish between compromises that advance their goals and compromises that weaken them.

We then look toward the next generation of change makers. Nicholas shares what gives him hope as a longtime teacher and points to movements around reproductive healthcare and climate change, as well as community organizing around the expansion of data centers.

Ultimately, Nicholas leaves listeners with a challenge: find the issue that troubles you, find other people who care about it, connect with organizations already doing the work, and figure out how you can contribute.

His final food for thought is a pair of questions:

What can I do to make this a healthier, more just world? And how can I get started?

Nicholas is the author of Fighting for New York: Activism for Health and Social Justice Since the 1960s, published by Columbia University Press. Listeners who want to connect with him can reach him at nick.freudenberg@sph.cuny.edu, the email address listed on his CUNY School of Public Health profile. (sph.cuny.edu)

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