Episode Details

What if secularization isn't the decline of religion — but the replacement of one social order with another? In this episode, Dr. James Spencer and Dr. Ashish Varma sit down with Dr. Kevin Flatt, professor of history at Redeemer University and author of Secularization, Social Order, and World History, to unpack one of the most provocative frameworks in contemporary Christian thinking: Sacred Social Order.

Kevin introduces the idea that every human culture — until the modern West — has organized its life around something higher than itself. He argues that what we call "religion" is actually a uniquely Western, uniquely modern compartment, while Sacred Social Order is the operating system beneath all of culture. From there, the conversation moves through Christian nationalism, the liberal firmware of Western democracy, Philip Reif's cultural warfare thesis, and why your children's public school is not religiously neutral.

If you've ever sensed that something deeper than a culture war is unfolding — that the ground itself has shifted — this episode gives you the language to name it.

Thinking Christian is hosted by Dr. James Spencer, president of the D. L. Moody Center and author of Digital Discernment (InterVarsity Press). Each conversation reads the Bible as the final authority for life and faith, questioning the assumptions of our culture, even our Christian culture, so that we don't settle for a narrower vision than God's word offers.

Unsettling convention. Cultivating conviction.
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Key Takeaways:

• What "Sacred Social Order" means, and why it's a more accurate lens than "religion" for understanding culture
• Why secular order isn't neutral — it has its own values, telos, and demands on individuals
• How the Christian nationalism debate connects to identical movements in India, Iran, China, and the Muslim world
• Why Philip Reif's "third culture" thesis is partly right — and where Kevin respectfully pushes back
• Why public education is never neutral, and what Christians should really be asking about schools
• Why the gym or the yoga studio may be shaping your theology more than Hinduism is
• The Labubu doll illustration: how misidentifying spiritual threats reveals our blind spots

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