Episode Details

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other.

In this episode, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Reyna walk into the heart of Stage 2 EFT and ask a hard question: How do you get the most out of YOU when every path forward involves pain?

Drawing on stories from haunted houses, combat medicine, and oncology surgery, they unpack what it means to be the stronger, wiser other—not as a top-down expert, but as a steady, emotionally present guide when clients’ eyes are begging, “Please don’t make me go there.”

You’ll hear how to:

• Stay confident and regulated in deep Stage 2 work
• Use your own limbic system, intensity, and presence in service of healing
• Avoid “over-validating” clients out of depth
• Become relentless but attuned when working with shame, trauma, and withdrawer re-engagement

Here are the top 10 points from the episode in bullet format, tailored for therapists:

1. Therapist consistency is heroic work

   • Therapists, like elite athletes or Navy SEALs, show up and train relentlessly—session after session—often without recognition, but this consistency is what makes deep Stage 2 work possible.

2. You are the “stronger, wiser other” in Stage 2

   • Borrowing from Bowlby, the therapist’s role is to be a grounded, slightly leading presence—not hierarchical, but a steady guide who believes in the clients’ capacity to go deeper.

3. Clients need your confidence more than your explanations

   • In Stage 2, detailed EFT mapping is less helpful than a calm, “I know where we’re going; we can do this together” energy.
   • Tone matters: gentle, invitational, and regulated—not pushy or detached.

4. Every real option involves pain—but not the same kind of pain

   • If you back away when clients say “don’t make me do this,” you protect them now but leave unregulated pain to hurt them later.
   • If you stay with them in the fear and shame, you create constructive, healing pain that opens the door to new patterns.

5. Self-coaching: what do YOU need to hear in the chair?

   • Therapists need internal scripts/mantras (e.g., “No one gets left behind on the battlefield”).
   • Drawing on mentors, attachment figures, faith, or personal values can help you stay present when you want to retreat.

6. Use your own limbic system—and the partner’s—to share the load

   • Strategic use of “we” (“We’ll go there together,” “We can face this”) helps clients feel they’re not alone.
   • The therapist can consciously bring their own emotional presence and the partner’s caregiving energy to bear on the hardest moments.

7. Relentless, attuned fighting for the client

   • Ryan names his intensity and even competitiveness as assets: he refuses to let the cycle “win.”
   • Clients often experience this as, “You fought for us more than we fought for ourselves,” which becomes contagious and regulating—as long as it stays tethered to alliance and repair.

8. Validation and celebration must be timed and dosed well

   • Over-validating or celebrating too soon can pull clients out of depth, like doing a cold plunge right after a hard muscle-building workout.
   • Validation should support staying with the core emotion, not remove the heat from the room prematurely.