Episode Details

One of the world’s most influential AI scientists used to believe advanced AI couldn’t truly be controlled.

Today, he thinks there may be a path forward.

Yoshua Bengio—one of the pioneers of modern AI and the world’s most cited computer scientist—once warned that increasingly powerful AI systems could become impossible to reliably control. But a new mathematical breakthrough changed his mind.

Now he’s founded LawZero, a nonprofit dedicated to developing a new approach to AI safety: systems designed to reason truthfully, remain transparent, and avoid the deceptive and self-preserving behaviors that have begun emerging in today’s frontier models.

In this conversation, we explore why advanced AI systems can learn to deceive, blackmail, and resist being shut down, why simply “pausing AI” isn’t a realistic solution, and how a fundamentally different approach to building AI could change the future of the technology.

If the mathematics behind this approach proves correct, it could reshape how we build, govern, and safely deploy increasingly capable AI systems.

What you’ll learn:

[00:01:25] — Why AI systems develop dangerous behaviors (self-preservation, deception, blackmail)

[00:13:04] — Why stopping AI isn't as simple as saying stop

[00:16:09] — Scientist AI and Law Zero: Bengio's framework for honest, safe AI

[00:30:35] — Why AI labs aren't adopting safer approaches

[00:36:23] — A framework for global AI governance: safety, non-domination, shared benefit

[00:42:25] — AI's geopolitical stakes: persuasion, soft power, and data sovereignty

[00:54:00] — Is superintelligence inevitable?

[00:56:22] — What citizens, voters, and governments can do right now

[01:02:30] — Labor, automation, and who should benefit from AI's economic gains

[01:09:31] — The future Bengio is fighting for

Follow Yoshua Bengio

Yoshua Bengio — Co-creator of deep learning, Turing Award recipient, Professor at Université de Montréal, Scientific Director of Mila (Quebec AI Institute), Founder of Law Zero

• Website: yoshuabengio.org

• X: @Yoshua_Bengio

• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/yoshuabengio/

• Law Zero: https://lawzero.org/en

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