Episode Details

In the third and final installment of the Curi series, Dr. John Pagan and Dr. Damian McHugh turn their attention to one of the most urgent challenges facing the physician community: burnout. They explore how Curi and PACN are working together to address the systemic roots of physician distress, why collective advocacy is essential, and how bringing physicians together around shared experiences and honest dialogue may be the most powerful tool available. The conversation closes with a forward-looking vision for what the PACN–Curi partnership can accomplish together.

New to this series? Parts 1 and 2 cover Curi's origins as a physician-owned liability mutual, its expanded services through Curi Capital and Curi Advisory, and the implications of Pennsylvania's recent venue change ruling.

Key Highlights

Burnout Is a System Problem, Not a Physician Problem Dr. McHugh opened with a reframing of the burnout conversation that he finds most meaningful in the recent literature: the shift away from telling physicians to build more resilience — do more yoga, exercise more — toward recognizing burnout as a signal of systemic toxicity. His analogy was vivid: when the canary in the coalmine starts turning gray and falls off its perch, that's not a reflection of the canary's weakness. It reflects the toxicity of the mine. Physicians are among the most capable and resilient people on the planet; when they are burning out at rates higher than the general population, the system needs to change — not the physicians.

What Curi Is Doing About It Even before Dr. McHugh joined the company, Curi was already having conversations with its member-owners about burnout — not just acknowledging it, but actively encouraging physicians to talk to each other and to Curi about it. Since joining, Dr. McHugh has worked with a cross-company team to take those initiatives further, vetting and partnering with organizations that can support physicians who self-identify as being in distress. The goal is not a single solution, but a range of supports that address the wide spectrum of what a physician in difficulty might need.

The Quadruple Aim: Physicians Cannot Be Left Out Dr. Pagan connected the burnout conversation to the evolution of healthcare's governing framework — from the Triple Aim (better care, better health, lower costs) to the Quadruple Aim, which adds physician and care team wellbeing as a fourth essential dimension. His point: you cannot achieve quality, efficient, patient-centered care if the people delivering that care are suffering. Advocacy for physician wellbeing must extend beyond the hospital C-suite to the legislature and the public, because many of the regulations and EMR burdens that compound physician stress are written into law by well-meaning policymakers who don't fully understand their impact on the people providing care.

The Value of Bringing Physicians Together Dr. McHugh described a recent Curi Community Advisory Board dinner in Pennsylvania — a think tank-style gathering where physicians from different specialties came together over a meal to share experiences, identify common challenges, and offer each other perspective. He noted that some physicians drove two hours through traffic to attend. His observation: this kind of peer-to-peer dialogue is becoming increasingly rare as physicians spend more time with computers and less time with each other. Both Curi and PACN see themselves as conveners — creating the trusted spaces where these conversations can happen and where ideas and concerns can be heard and acted upon.

Together We Are Stronger Both Dr. Pagan and Dr. McHugh returned to a central theme: the power of collective action. Dr. Pagan put it plainly — if physicians are not at the table when healthcare decisions are being made, they are likely on the menu. The bonds that uni