Episode Details

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other.

In this episode of Push the Leading Edge, Dr. James Hawkins (Doc Hawk) and Dr. Ryan Rana unpack what it actually looks and feels like when a couple reaches the end of Stage 2 in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT).

They move beyond theory and manuals into the lived, embodied reality: couples who can stay in the emotional “fire,” face their deepest shame and pain, and still reach for each other. Using vivid metaphors—from Navy SEAL training, battle buddies, and swim buddies, to military deployments and “embrace the suck”—they illustrate how Stage 2 work transforms not just the relationship, but each partner’s internal sense of self and safety.

1. End of Stage 2 = Installed Positive Cycle

   • You know you’re at the end of Stage 2 when couples can see, use, and stay in a positive cycle on their own.
   • The negative cycle isn’t “gone,” but they can repair it reliably and return to connection.

2. It’s Not About Trying, It’s About Training

   • Stage 2 is like military training: repeated, high‑pressure enactments (often ~30+ deep enactments across Stage 2) build automatic, embodied responses, not just cognitive insight.
   • When the “bricks clack” (the trigger of the negative cycle), their bodies now know what to do.

3. Caregiving System Comes Online

   • A key marker of Stage 2 completion is that each partner’s caregiving system is active and available.
   • Partners start pre‑emptively making space for the other’s pain, even before a clear signal is sent, and can say, in effect, “I know this might be hard for you, and I’m here.”

4. “I Must Be Willing to Know Me to Be Known by You”

   • Borrowing from Leanne Campbell, James highlights that clients must be willing to know themselves—all the versions of self—for true intimacy.
   • By end of Stage 2, clients are less afraid of their inner world; they befriend previously shame-filled parts and bring them into the relationship.

5. Both Partners Can Go Deep and Offer A.R.E.

   • True Stage 2 completion means both partners can:
     • Go deep into vulnerability without getting stuck in blame or avoidance
     • Offer A.R.E. (Accessibility, Responsiveness, Engagement) as caregivers
   • It’s not enough for just one partner to do deep work; dyadic reciprocity is crucial.

6. From “Fix Me” to “Be With Me”

   • A major shift is from “please fix me or fix this” to “be with me in this.”
   • Therapists should mark not only outcomes but effort and presence: “Look how you stayed with your partner for 30 minutes in the basement of their pain without trying to fix it.”

7. Confidence and Relational Resilience Grow

   • Couples leave Stage 2 with a felt sense of, “We can do this.”
   • They have experiential proof that under pressure they can rappel into the basement of pain, stay present, and emerge together—building relational resilience, not just symptom relief.

8. Secure Bonds Are Simple but Not Easy

   • Secure bonds aren’t conceptually complicated:
     • Show up
     • Stay present
     • Respond vulnerably and reliably
   • The hard part is slowing down when the body wants to speed up and remaining vulnerably present in discomfort, not learning 50 relationship t