Episode Details

So here's what we're wrestling with in this episode: What if economics isn't just a topic theology comments on, but actually the bigger framework that shapes what's theologically possible? That's the question that sent Brian McLaren searching, and it's what led him—and us—to the Japanese philosopher Kojin Karatani and his game-changing framework about modes of exchange laid out in his book, The Structure of World History We're talking about how nation, state, and capital work together as these integrated energies, and how if you try to critique just one without seeing the others, you end up reproducing the very thing you're trying to escape. The biblical narrative becomes this fascinating case study—starting with naked hunter-gatherers in a garden with no religion, state, or market, and ending with the New Jerusalem coming down with no need for a temple. And maybe, just maybe, understanding these modes of exchange—the symbolic, the coercive, the economic—helps us see what kind of future we're actually moving toward. It's the kind of conversation that makes you realize the church's learned ignorance about economics might be the source of its greatest spiritual crisis, and you know what? That's worth paying attention to.

You can WATCH the conversation on YouTube

You can find the YouTube playlist of videos outlining Karatani’s work here.

Joining me for this conversation is...

Guillermo Bervejillo is an economic geographer and community organizer who bridges critical theory and social movement practice. If you missed our previous conversation, where we introduced Karatani’s work check it out - Kojin Karatani’s The Structure of World History.

Brian D. McLaren is an author, speaker, activist, and public theologian. Don’t miss his AMAZING new book, The Last Voyage. 

Dawson Allen is the movement manager at the Center for Action & Contemplation. 

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