Episode Details

This week on Five Rules for the Good Life, I sit down with Josh Donald and Kelly Kozak, the duo behind Bernal Cutlery in San Francisco. For twenty years, they’ve built a world-class knife shop rooted in craftsmanship, curiosity, and community. What started with a few sharpening stones has evolved into a creative hub for makers, master craftsmen, and cooks alike. In our conversation, they share their Five Rules for Staying Teachable, which include staying humble, opening yourself to new ideas, and moving forward even when you think you’ve mastered your craft. It’s a reminder that no matter how far you’ve come, there’s always room to grow if you stay curious.

There’s something about hearing Josh and Kelly talk about staying open—after two decades in the game, that reminded me why I still love doing what I do. I’ve built shows, books, podcasts, and brands, but I’m still learning every day. I still want to get better. Still want to be pushed. Whether it’s cooking, writing, or parenting, I’m always searching for that edge, that feeling that there’s more out there to master if I lean in and stay teachable. Their story isn’t just inspiring, it’s grounding. A reminder that growth isn’t a milestone, it’s a mindset.

Photo by Molly DeCoudreaux

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Hello and welcome to Five Rules for the Good Life. I’m your host, Darin Bresnitz. Today, I sit down with two icons from the world of knife making, Josh Donald and Kelly Kozak, who are co-founders and co-owners of Bernal Cutlery, which is celebrating its 20th anniversary this year. They join me today to share their five rules for staying teachable. They talk about their continued practice of sharing knowledge, how they keep their original intent in their daily mindset, and that the only way to grow is to keep pushing yourself into uncomfortable territory. This is a great conversation for anyone who is interested in learning a skill, running a small business, or anyone who is looking for inspiration to keep learning new things every day. So let’s get into the rules.

Josh and Kelly, so great to see you two again. Congratulations, 20 years of vernal cutlery. Always a pleasure to sit down and chat with you too. Thanks for having us. Thank you so much for having us. You started the business two decades ago, sharpening knives, which is an artistic skill unto itself. When you got started, how did you learn those initial skills? What was your mindset back then?

There was making ends meet and there was having fun and they were kind of both interplaying with each other. Initially it was, hey we have 40 bucks let’s get this business going a little bit, bought a second stone to sharpen with. And then it was, hey it sucks only sharpening with two stones, let’s try and find a little machine that will work with this. And then it was, hey we’ve got 80 bucks that we could bring down to the flea market and see about buying some knives to resell.

I just remember it so much differently because he was really frustrated with that learning process. And I remember him staying up all night, sharpening a pair of pruners and a lot of, how are we going to ever make money at this? I remember you telling me to stop going to the flea market at one point too. You’re like, can you just skip it? Why don’t you go later in the morning? But it was like, no, man, you got to get there at 5am. You don’t find the good s**t if you get there at 10. Yeah. That frustration, especially early on, could keep you from going forward.

But you go from sharpening knives and refurbishing knives to getting the idea to make your own. What was that deciding factor to start making your own knives? What were some of your earlier mistakes that you had to push through? Oh