Lasers vs Painkillers: Deep-dive into Photobiomodulation

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Episode 222

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Guest: Forrest Smith — serial founder bringing clinic-grade photobiomodulation to a safe, wearable form factor.
Theme: Why dose and delivery matter more than raw wattage for red light therapy.

Key takeaways

• Wavelengths that work: Deep red 660 nm (blood flow, NO release, shallow penetration) + 808 nm near-IR (deeper tissues/joints).
• Mechanisms: Hemoglobin photodissociates NO → vasodilation + better O₂ delivery; mitochondria’s cytochrome c oxidase bottleneck relieved → higher ATP output; downstream: resilience to oxidative stress.
• Performance & recovery: Overnight reductions in CK and CRP let athletes train sooner; UFC PI and USA Weightlifting use cases mentioned.
• Brains & microvessels: Near-IR protocols tied to BDNF and microvascular improvements—an emerging Alzheimer’s angle.
• Dosing > device hype: Class-1 lasers allow precise, reproducible dosing to deeper targets; panels/LEDs spread light too broadly and shift dose by distance (inverse-square).
• Safety & contraindications: Class-1 lasers are eye-safe in normal use; titanium implants OK (osseointegration may improve). Pregnancy and active cancer: regulatory contraindications despite encouraging early data.
• Personal protocol (example): 15 min over carotids + 15 min lower abdomen (gut) upon waking; higher-melanin skin generally needs longer time at same power.

Resources & links (from interview)

• Kineon: kineon.io 

Chapter markers (approx.)

00:00 Why red light now?
 00:34 Mission: measurable QoL at scale
 03:02 Risks of NSAIDs vs alternatives
 03:34 660 nm + 808 nm explained
 05:34 Newer NIR bands (905–1064 nm)
 07:39 Penetration depth: red vs NIR
 08:34 Photoacceptors & evolution (melanin)
 10:28 Hemoglobin, NO, and O₂ delivery
 12:02 Mitochondria & ATP bottleneck
 14:06 Brain protection & TBI athletes
 14:34 CK/CRP drops & faster training
 15:55 Dosing by melanin level
 17:49 Implants, pregnancy, cancer notes
 21:22 Biphasic dose curve; laser classes
 25:26 LEDs vs lasers; panels’ dose drift
 27:50 Strongest evidence areas (wound, knee OA)
 29:33 Gut–brain, BDNF, microvasc/Alzheimer’s
 31:46 Forrest’s daily protocol (neck + gut)
 34:00 Systemic effects; fertil

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Published on 1 week ago