Episode Details

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My guest: Michelle "Mace" Curran is a combat veteran, former fighter pilot, and only the second woman in history to fly as the Lead Solo for the Thunderbirds, the U.S. Air Force's elite demonstration squadron. Now on a new mission, she's using her story to inspire others. She is the best-selling author of The Flipside: How to Invert Your Perspective and Turn Fear Into Your Superpower.

• How to run "debrief" so that giving and getting feedback becomes embedded in your culture.
• The biggest mistake Michelle made when she became a new fighter pilot, and what you can learn from it.
  • Early Exposure to Male-Dominated Environments – Michelle's dad took her hunting with guys starting at age 7, teaching her she "belonged in any room" she wanted to pursue. This early experience prepared her for being 1 of only 2% female fighter pilots.
  • Parents Who Believed in Wild Dreams – Parents worked multiple jobs to afford camps (criminal justice, archaeology) whenever Michelle showed interest in something new. Taught her that opportunities weren't just possibilities - "I could go after it."
  • The Lone Wolf Trap – When struggling in her first squadron, Michelle was afraid to ask questions because she thought it would show she didn't belong. "I wouldn't even ask questions because I felt like asking a question was just so uncomfortable."
  • Three Years of Struggling in Silence – Despite performing well in the air, Michelle spent three years "belly crawling, pulling myself by my fingernails" because she felt pressure to represent all women perfectly.
  • The Fresh Start Power – Moving from Japan to Texas gave her a reset: "No one here knows about my divorce. No one here knows all these struggles I've been going through." Sometimes you need a clean slate to rebuild.
  • Curiosity + Vulnerability = Community – The breakthrough came when fellow pilots asked pointed questions beyond platitudes: "How are you actually doing?" Real curiosity that goes deeper than "let me know if you need anything."
  • The Near Head-On Collision Story – Flying inverted at 500 mph, passing within 80 feet of another jet using only eyeballs for distance measurement. When her student pilot aimed straight at her, she had 2.5 seconds to decide whether to move or hold position.
  • Learning from Mistakes, Not Punishing Them – After the near-collision, Michelle chose teaching over berating: "What is the most productive way we can respond to get the most learning from that?" The student learned faster because he found the boundary.
  • The Debrief Culture Framework – Start with objectives, go through segments systematically, ask "why" five times to find root causes, create specific lesson learned, and share with the entire organization so others don't repeat mistakes.
  • Rank Comes Off in Debriefs – Even generals sit in debriefs led by mid-level captains who are the real tactical experts. "Status comes off" - expertise matters more than hierarchy when analyzing performance.
  • The Teaching-Learning Loop