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Historian Laurent Guyénot, author of From Yahweh to Zion, returns to discuss his two most recent articles, “The Disraeli Enigma” and “The Cursed Nation and the Temple of Satan.”

On a related note, see my argument with Jonas Alexis, who negatively reviewed From Yahweh to Zion in the new issue of Culture Wars.

Excerpts from the transcript:

Laurent Guyenot: I'm not fighting against Christianity and I'm definitely not fighting against Jesus. I feel Jesus is an incredibly inspiring heroic figure. “Jesus is a Palestinian.” We need Jesus. I'm not trying to deny the importance of Jesus as a central figure in our civilization.

But my priority now became to understand Israel. And I became convinced that you cannot understand modern Israel if you don't understand that modern Israel is the same as ancient Israel. And that's a big disagreement with Christians (who say) “modern Israel has nothing to do with the people of ancient Israel, who were holy people. Yes, they wanted to genocide the Amalekites, but that's because the Amalekites were really, really, really bad.”

I'm fed up with these kinds of things. I feel Netanyahu wants to genocide the Amalekites exactly as Moses wanted to genocide the Amalekites. And I feel it's really way too late now to start to defend ancient Israel. Ancient Israel is just as demonic as modern Israel. And if you don't come to the point of realizing this, you just cannot understand what Israel is. You think “it's because they're Zionists, they're not real Jews in any way, they're Ashkenazi Jews.” And you find all kinds of excuses to protect the essence of Israel.

The essence of Israel is in the Bible, is in the Torah. I don't especially want to burn the Torah, but I want to put it in a museum or in a library together with Homer and this kind of thing. It's an interesting book, but I definitely don't want anything to do with it as the story of God choosing the Jews. I don't believe God chose the Jews. If I talk to Christians, I want to help them to find a way to get out of this dilemma.

And one way, I suggest to them is (to ask): Did Jesus really claim to be the Messiah? Because it doesn't really matter. You say, well, there's the true Messiah or the military Messiah. In any case, if Jesus said, yes, I am the Messiah, that means he stands within the paradigm of the chosen people. Because if God sends the Messiah, that means He needs the holy people and so on. From the historical perspective, that of historians of Jesus, it's debatable. because there is this, notion of the messianic secret. Sometimes Jesus sounded like he said, yes, I'm the Messiah, but don't say it, don't tell it to anyone—which of course, from the historian's point of view, means that he didn't say “I'm the Messiah.”