Episode Details

Summary

Mark Zaid (X, LinkedIn) joins Andrew (X; LinkedIn) to discuss American intelligence and the law. You’ve heard of a “lawyer to the stars,” Mark is the “lawyer to the spies”

What You’ll Learn

Intelligence

• The quirks of being a lawyer in this space
• How the Espionage Act works in practice 
• The trial of the Rosenbergs
• The origins of FOIA and its purpose
• The Legal foundations underpinning espionage and intelligence

Reflections

• Challenging authority 
• The delicate balance of secrecy

And much, much more …

Quotes of the Week

“I still love working every day, 30 years later, because there's still something new. As much as I fight for declassification and transparency, I will at times also see information and learn of events where I go, “Oh, I get it. Yeah, that stuff cannot be known. That's incredible what we did. That's pretty wild.” – Mark Zaid.

Resources 

SURFACE SKIM

*SpyCasts*

• Agent of Betrayal, FBI Spy Robert Hanssen with CBS’ Major Garrett and Friends (2023)
• David Petraeus on Ukraine & Intelligence with the former CIA Director & 4* General (2023)
• Havana Syndrome – A Panel featuring Nicky Woolf, Marc Polymeropoulos, and Mark Zaid (2023) 
• How Artificial Intelligence is Changing the Spy Game with Mike Susong (2023) 

*Beginner Resources*

• What Is a Whistleblower? Protections, Law, Importance, and Example, W. Kenton, Investopedia (2022) [Short article]
• What is a Lawyer? American Bar Association (2019) [Short article]
• Legal System Basics, CrashCourse, YouTube (2015) [8 min. video]

DEEPER DIVE

Books

• State of Silence: The Espionage Act and the Rise of America's Secrecy Regime, S. Lebovic (Basic Books, 2023)
• Ethel Rosenberg, A. Sebba (Griffin, 2022)
• Spies on Trial: True Tales of Espionage in the Courtroom, C. C. Kuhne (Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 2019)

Primary Sources 

• A Letter from Aldrich Ames on Polygraph Testing (2000)
• Whistle Blower Protection Act (1989)  
• DoD Polygraph Program (1984)
• National Security Decision Directive 84 (1983)
• Inspector General Act (1978)
• Freedom of Information Act (1966) 
• Administr