Episode Details

A six-year-old, Nicolle Kopping-Pavars says, often understood the divorce better than the adults living it. She spent years as the lawyer for the child in high-conflict Canadian custody cases, the person whose only client was the kid, and this episode is what that seat taught her.

Nicolle Kopping-Pavars is a former family lawyer who worked as a court-appointed children's lawyer through the Office of the Children's Lawyer, representing kids from age one to seventeen in high-conflict separations and child-protection cases. She has since left litigation to work as a peace coach and mindfulness instructor. She and Lisa were introduced by a mutual guest and, in Nicolle's words, were on the same page from the first conversation.

Much of the hour is her method and what it reveals. She sorted parents into camps by how they received her, and grew wary of the ones who worked hardest to convince her they were the good parent. She refused to read the court file before meeting the parents, so a skilled writer's version of events could not prime her. And she lays out how a trained children's lawyer catches coaching: is the child consistent, is the account independent of which parent brought them, and do the rehearsed answers survive being asked again a little later. To bring a child's wishes to the judge honestly, she cast the child as the director and herself as the scriptwriter, and when a child was too afraid to have something said aloud, she offered to tell the judge privately.

For parents, her guidance is practical and gentle. Do not lean on a child's self-report, and never let them know you were the one who flagged a concern. She shares two questions she used to reach a child's real feelings, an imaginary island and asking the "wisest person in the world" what advice they'd give their parents, and cautions parents not to run them on their own kids. She closes on the two-bosses analogy for what you are really asking a child to do, why "you did nothing wrong" can backfire, and the peace-coaching work she does now.

As always, this is strategic education, not legal or mental-health advice for your specific situation.

🎓 What you'll learn

• What a court-appointed children's lawyer actually does, and why nothing a parent tells them is privileged
• Why an experienced children's lawyer reads the parents before the court file, to avoid being swayed
• How professionals spot a coached child: consistency, independence, and answers that vanish minutes later
• Why responding fast and respectfully to a children's lawyer matters more than you'd think
• The "director and scriptwriter" method for carrying a child's wishes into court without exposing them
• Why you can't rely on a child's self-report, and how to raise a concern without breaking their trust
• Two questions that reveal what a child actually feels, and why not to use them on your own kids
• What to say, and not say, to a child about the split so they don't blame themselves

⏱️ Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:00 From children's lawyer to peace coach: Nicolle's background
4:00 "Chunky dinks": why kids see and understand everything
6:00 Reading parents before the court file, and the three camps
11:00 How fast a parent responds, and why there's no privilege with parents
16:00 Your "response-ability," and reassurance for a scared parent
19:00 Spotting a coached child: the last-name story
23:00 Consistency, independence, and how often she met the kids
25:00 The director-and-scriptwriter method, and telling the judge privately
30:00 Reporting "rages," and the collaterals she trusted
37:00 Two questions: the island, and the wisest kid in the world
45:00 The "two bosses" analogy, what to say about the split, and finding Nicolle

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