Episode Details

Mark Epstein M.D. (private practice, NYC)

The zen of therapy: Uncovering a hidden kindness in life

"A warm, profound and cleareyed memoir. . . this wise and sympathetic book's lingering effect is as a reminder that a deeper and more companionable way of life lurks behind our self-serious stories."—Oliver Burkeman, New York Times Book Review

A remarkable exploration of the therapeutic relationship, Dr. Mark Epstein reflects on one year's worth of therapy sessions with his patients to observe how his training in Western psychotherapy and his equally long investigation into Buddhism, in tandem, led to greater awareness—for his patients, and for himself

For years, Dr. Mark Epstein kept his beliefs as a Buddhist separate from his work as a psychiatrist. Content to use his training in mindfulness as a private resource, he trusted that the Buddhist influence could, and should, remain invisible. But as he became more forthcoming with his patients about his personal spiritual leanings, he was surprised to learn how many were eager to learn more. The divisions between the psychological, emotional, and the spiritual, he soon realized, were not as distinct as one might think. In The Zen of Therapy, Dr. Epstein reflects on a year's worth of selected sessions with his patients and observes how, in the incidental details of a given hour, his Buddhist background influences the way he works. Meditation and psychotherapy each encourage a willingness to face life's difficulties with courage that can be hard to otherwise muster, and in this cross-section of life in his office, he emphasizes how therapy, an element of Western medicine, can in fact be considered a two-person meditation. Mindfulness, too, much like a good therapist, can "hold" our awareness for us—and allow us to come to our senses and find inner peace. Throughout this deeply personal inquiry, one which weaves together the wisdom of two worlds, Dr. Epstein illuminates the therapy relationship as spiritual friendship, and reveals how a therapist can help patients cultivate the sense that there is something magical, something wonderful, and something to trust running through our lives, no matter how fraught they have been or might become. For when we realize how readily we have misinterpreted our selves, when we stop clinging to our falsely conceived constructs, when we touch the ground of being, we come home. TRANSCRIPT Transcription: August Baker: This is August Baker, and today I'm happy to be able to speak with Dr. Mark Epstein, a psychiatrist and private practice in New York City. And the author of a number of books about the interface of Buddhism and psychotherapy. Seems to be one of the pioneers of using Buddhism in medicine in the United States. He worked with all the usual suspects that you learn about as an American looking into this issue; Herbert Benson, Ron Doss, Robert Thurman, Joseph Goldstein, Jack Kornfield, Sharon Salzberg, not to mention the current Dalai Lama, who Dr. Epstein met very early on, and who actually also wrote the introduction to Mark's first book. Today, I'm pleased to talk to Dr. Epstein about his newest book, The Zen of Therapy: Uncovering a Hidden Kindness. Welcome, Mark. Dr. Epstein: Thank you so much. August Baker: I will say to our listeners that I actually listened to this book. If you're listening to this podcast, you used to listening, and I listened to this book. Dr. Epstein: You listened to the book? August Baker: I did. Dr. Epstein: You heard me reading it? August Baker: Yes. It was it a very good way of doing it. In fact, I listened to it twice. And it's a very enjoyable read. As you point out, it is always interesting, there are a lot of case examples, you're talking about actual patients and what's going on, and those are always interesting, as you point out. But it works well in the car. Dr. Epstein: That's good. August Baker: So to give you an open-ended prompt to start, it seems like for this book you dec